In this interview with MAYOWA SAMUEL, an All Progressives Congress chieftain in Lagos State and former Minister of Works and a one-time Senator representing Lagos-East, Adeseye Ogunlewe, speaks on the crises rocking the ruling party, insecurity challenges facing Nigeria as well as the intimidating economic difficulties in the country. Excerpts:
The internal rumblings in the APC, most notably, the controversy surrounding Mai Mala Buni, Chairman of the Caretaker committee, is far from being over. Don’t you think this will be to the advantage of other opposition parties come 2023?
Not yet, it’s too early to determine that. What one will appeal to the APC to do is to immediately constitute the convention committee to start planning for the convention so that all the authorities and powers will be removed from him. Buni shouldn’t participate in the convention but as long as he continues to behave as if he’s the one that will conduct the convention, there will be problems.
It’s not his job, he should set up the committee and let the people begin to do their work and he should step aside, that’s the way to go.
What in your opinion is the root of all the problems in the APC right now?
You know you want to install the executive that will favour you, that’s all. That is why they are against direct primaries because with direct primaries, the excos that you are fighting for is not important. It will resolve all these in-fighting about the structure of the party, once we all agree with direct primaries. That’s the way out, that’s the best.
As a member of the APC from Lagos…
Yes, in 2019, because there is no PDP in Lagos State again.
You were once a member of the PDP. What was the problem between you and the PDP?
Frustration, lack of focus, corruption, stealing. They are not cut out to win any election. Even their candidates, who won, were upset about winning. How can you be quarreling and fighting people who won elections in your party, to the extent that they all left your party and went to APC? Is that a party? During an election, a member of your party won an election, you called INEC not to declare him the winner but the opposition to be declared winner, is that a party? It’s very frustrating.
Was that what led to your defection from the party?
Still the same frustration, they were not serious. They can’t win any election because they are part of APC, clear and simple.
The PDP part of the APC?
Yes, when you cannot deliver your polling booth, which party do you then belong to? How do you win an election? Everybody struggles to win their polling booth but when the leadership says it doesn’t matter whether I win my polling booth or not, is that a political party? So who should win for us when the leadership is not winning its polling units? How do you win? If it’s your people that won their polling booth, you will make sure that they don’t declare them, you fight them. It’s a pity, a tragedy of the highest order, so hopeless. All these things I’m saying, you know. There is no journalist in this state that does not know that PDP in Lagos State is a scam. They collect money from APC during elections and keep quiet, all of you know.
The PDP once told The Point that the internal rumblings in the APC will be an opportunity for it to get to the helm of affairs in 2023. Do you share that thought?
Are you not going to win the election in your state before you win at the federal? Why are they bothered about the federal government? Do they vote federally? Where is the voting taking place? Is it not in your polling booth? So when you cannot deliver that polling booth, why are you now talking about federal? Are you not wasting time? Let them win their polling booths, then they can go to the federal but when you don’t win your polling booths, what are you doing at the federal?
It could be just like the APC won Lagos before winning at the federal level.
Of course, you must win your polling booths and wards. How can you say you have 375 councilors, PDP won just one, is that one a party? They should have fought the battle and won more. Once you win, it’s difficult for the APC to take it. They went to the tribunal and the tribunal gave it to the boy, it was clear that he won. But when you cannot fight to win and you are talking grammar, does that make sense?
What do you say about the inability of the APC-led federal government to tackle insecurity, especially in the North?
As far as I’m concerned, they are just realising the difficulty that is involved in fighting insecurity because they are their people, they don’t want to fight them, they are sympathetic to them, that is the truth.
Won’t the leadership of your party take offence to this particular statement of yours?
Are the people not going to vote for them whether they kill them or not? Are they not going to write the figures there? Where we have ravaging Boko Haram activities, they are declaring 1.3 million votes. Look, they know what to do; the thing has overwhelmed them now. It started small, if they had nipped it in the bud then, it wouldn’t have developed to this level.
What about the allegation that the APC instigated these insurgents thinking that it was not going to win the 2015 elections? Do you subscribe to that allegation?
No, but the thing has been brewing. What do you expect when you have 10 million children out of school? Is that not idleness? Are you not playing into the hands of those people? When you don’t send your children to school, this is what you expect and we are praying it does not overwhelm the whole country because almost every year, we have children out of school. Those who graduated cannot even find jobs, so what do you expect? It’s a problem, so, the thing was there. Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, the deposed Emir of Kano, told them that when you are talking about poverty in Nigeria, you should not be talking about the North because the poverty there is worse. If you are talking about average poverty, we are not seeing poverty at all. He said come to the North; they will see what is called poverty. Does poverty not bring violence? They ought to take care of their people, if they don’t take care of them, that’s what you’ll get and that’s what Bill Gates told them. Build railways, build the best roads, and the rest, untrained children will destroy them. There is no doubt at all that all these railways and infrastructure we are building while we are neglecting the masses, they will blow everything up one day. Look at the #EndSARS where over 80 buses were destroyed in a day, do you know the cost of those buses? That is the problem. You must train and invest in your children. Which infrastructure are you building when you are not taking care of your people? I pity all of us.
“It’s over-centralisation that’s killing this country. Everything is federal, security is federal, petroleum is federal. How can the federal government determine the cost of petrol? Because they think it’s going to be to their own advantage? Is it not blowing in their heads now? They are too meddlesome, they meddle in everything and they now cause trouble
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Some Igbo leaders recently visited the President to ask for a political solution to secure the release of Nnamdi Kanu. What in your opinion should the government do regarding Kanu?
They should have raised eminent lawyers to tackle them at the court and get him freed. Don’t plead for release, if you do, he will never go home. Ask for accelerated trial, his release can be within six months and let us see the validity of the claim of the federal government. What do you want the president to do now, to free the man? Does he have that power? Do they want the man to move out without being vindicated of all the charges against him? They should raise a very strong defence to fight them and let him be freed by the court. Is that not more reasonable? What are they begging for? If you say the man should go now and the man starts the problem again, what are you going to do?
Will you say the same for Sunday Adeyemo (Igboho)? It is being rumoured that he may be repatriated to Nigeria.
Is that one not even easier? Are they not going to do that one easily? The man should be tried and let us know whether he has committed any offence or not, you cannot just hold on to him.
But most people are worried that if he is repatriated, he will be given the Kanu treatment?
No, they will go to court and prove his guilt; it’s not that easy at all. He should face it. Which crime has he committed? Has he killed anybody? Let them go ahead. It is when you beg them that they think they are doing you a favour, they are not doing anybody any favour, they can never win in court because most of the offences they are claiming are not federal offences, they will battle it out. Get lawyers who are cerebral that will take them, there is no need to beg them.
Will you agree to the allegations that the government is overwhelmed?
It’s over-centralisation that’s killing this country. Everything is federal, security is federal, petroleum is federal. How can the federal government determine the cost of petrol? Because they think it’s going to be to their own advantage? Is it not blowing in their heads now? They are too meddlesome, they meddle in everything and they now cause trouble. Just remove yourselves and leave it to the states and local governments as their responsibilities. Tell them wherever you can get petrol for your people it is your business. Those people reside in the states, let them get petrol for them. If you want to subsidise petrol for them, subsidise it for them because it is the money that should be spent at state level that they are spending as subsidy. So, disengage yourself from the thing and let the local government and the state determine the level of petrol they want to use, how they want to use it and the cost. Don’t put your head there, hands off.
What you are talking about is closely linked to restructuring which the federal government has been avoiding….
Then, they’ll bear the brunt. If they want to continue carrying it, they should continue, it will overwhelm them. Is it not already overwhelming them? Why must you do everything? And the level of corruption here is the highest in the world. If they are afraid of restructuring, let them give all these things to the states, state police, the military, take foreign exchange, this and that. Let the states be battling with their problems. Ordinary labour matter, you are making it a national issue, how can labour be a national issue? Is the federal government employing doctors in the states? Let the states bear the responsibility so that you will do little, so that if there is a strike in one state, it won’t be a national strike and there won’t be need to pay national minimum wage. Is a doctor in Kano supposed to get the same salary as a doctor working here in Lagos? Let everybody pay the wages for their people but the federal government will not listen, they want to do everything.
But the thing will overwhelm them, so how will they cope?
