Ken Eluma Asogwa is a human rights activist and lawyer. In this interview with MAYOWA SAMUEL, he speaks about the constitutionality of the ministerial nominees list President Bola Tinubu submitted to the National Assembly. He also added his voice to other burning issues in the country. Excerpts:
You must have seen the list of ministerial nominees. What’s your take on the names in this list?
I’m not aware that there are technocrats in the list that Mr. President released. There’s nothing inspiring about that list. As a matter of fact, for some people who had hopes that things could come out from this administration, I sympathize with them because it’s a dashed hope for them.
But for some of us who knew from the get go that there was nothing to come out of this administration, I’ve never been surprised.
On the issue of technocrats, there’s no technocrat in the list. I saw someone who was the former Managing Director of Federal Mortgage Bank who rose through the ranks to become Managing Director of the bank. He’s a retiree, he’s a nominee from Katsina State, but that he rose through the ranks to become Managing Director of Federal Mortgage Bank as a civil servant, does not make him a technocrat.
Well, I don’t even know the ministry they’re going to ask him to head. What can even make him a technocrat is maybe for example, Federal Mortgage Bank deals with housing and all that, so maybe they’re able to give him Minister of Housing, that’s when one can now call him a technocrat.
But if they make him Minister for Labour for example, that’s not a technocrat. So, because of the fact that portfolios are not attached, it’s too early for anybody to say there’s a technocrat in the nomination list.
The Constitution states that the president is mandated to nominate ministers from every state. Now, the same Constitution has gone ahead to say that within 60 days of swearing in, Mr President must nominate ministers that will be sent to the National Assembly.
“The only name that is striking and inspiring is Nasir El-Rufai, because he has held positions where he has distinguished himself. I don’t like his politics but I love his administration, he’s a good administrator”
The Chief of Staff to the President, Femi Gbajabiamila explained why the portfolios were not attached. Will you suggest that the National Assembly make doing so a law?
Yes, there should be legislation that will tell the president that as you’re forwarding the list of ministers, it should be accompanied with their portfolios. The reason for it is simple but in this case, I must confess that there’s no law that Mr. President has violated in that aspect.
Even traditionally, all the presidents before him, none of them attached portfolios before they came into the National Assembly for a screening, so I can make excuses for him on that. But the National Assembly needs to make a law in that regard.
The reason for this screening is to find out the suitability of these people to be ministers of the federal republic, especially for those particular positions. How can you attain the suitability of a minister when you’re not asking him any question regarding the ministry he’s going to head?
If somebody for example is nominated as Minister for Agriculture, when he comes to the Senate, you should be able to ask him what he understands about Cassava flour, whether he understands the import of that ministry, they should be able to ask questions relating to what he’s being asked to go and do.
That’s why you keep seeing ‘bow and go’ as the tradition there, because there’s actually no question to ask. The other questions that maybe they would have asked had already been asked, maybe by the DSS during screening. DSS must have already done the background check, so what are you asking? General questions on what? You’re not there to check their background, it’s not for them to ask them to sing the national anthem, making the whole thing look like child’s play.
You said the names in the list aren’t inspiring but at least, there must be one or two names that strike you, that you know are very competent and credible. Which of them will that be?
The only name that is striking and inspiring is Nasir El-Rufai, because he has held positions where he has distinguished himself. I don’t like his politics but I love his administration, he’s a good administrator.
It takes me back to what I said earlier on that because portfolios are not attached, we might not know. If El-Rufai is taken to a place where he doesn’t have the advantage to excel, he might still go there and not do well and flop.
So, it still depends on where he’s sent to go and administer but on a general note, he has demonstrated that he has capacity to take decisions, he has the political will to take very difficult decisions during some hard times.
Outside Nasir El-Rufai, there’s no name that inspires anybody that maybe something could happen. Is it the former governor of Ebonyi State? Is it the former governor of Rivers State? Is it the former governor of Jigawa State? Who else is on that list?
You just mentioned the former governor of Rivers State, Nyesom Wike. Many people expected him to make the list. Some PDP members are already agitating that he should leave the party and formally join the APC. Are you among those who believe that his nomination as a minister is a confirmation of the allegation that he rigged the election in Tinubu’s favour?
I’ll be very circumspect in using the word “rigged”, because his matter is in court but let me tell you something. What you see playing out in Nigeria today with this ministerial list, epitomizes the state capture we are in in this country now.
The people who captured the powers, who captured the states, who ensured that the votes of the people didn’t count, are sharing the booty, that’s exactly what they’re doing. I’m not a PDP man; I’m not interested in what his political party says. I’m much more interested in the reason behind the nomination of Wike as minister.
It’s compensation for helping the president to capture power. “Capture”, remember the word is “capture”. It’s a state capture and they’re sharing the booty.
I just reeled out some names for you to see the calibre of people who want to occupy positions in Nigeria as ministers.
At a very critical time like this, we need technocrats that can take us out of where we are today. The same people that drove us aground are the same people you’re bringing up as ministers of the Federal Republic now. It shows that what’s more paramount to Mr. President is keeping himself in power because it is political considerations that made him appoint these kinds of people as ministers, so ordinary Nigerians can go to hell.
Which names were you expecting to make this list?
I was not expecting any particular name. There are billions of Nigerians doing so many exploits all over the world. If you go to Google, there are Nigerians who work in Google; if you go to Facebook, there are Nigerians who work in Facebook; if you go to Twitter, there are Nigerians who sit on the board of Twitter; there are Nigerians who work in Fintech; everywhere all over the world, there are Nigerians who have made marks in medicine, science and technology, in Fintech, everywhere all over the world. Go and get them, it’s not for me to name names; it is for the president to spread his dragnet to discover these people and submit their names to him.
We’ve seen over time that even with credible names, when they get into office, they get compromised; they usually tilt their loyalties toward the president that appointed them, instead of towards the people who they’re meant to serve. Knowing this, don’t you think credibility for the appointed position is overrated?
The only time Nigeria recorded resounding progress since 1999 was under Obasanjo, who appointed Okonjo-Iweala and allowed her to work; appointed Souldo and allowed him to work, when we had the banking consolidation.
You can’t have a leader who appoints people and you don’t allow them to work. As bad as we criticized Jonathan’s government, he allowed Akinwumi Adesina to work and today, he’s the head of African Development Bank, they compensated him for the good work he did here. Okonjo-Iweala was in that government as well. Under Jonathan, you saw some flashes of competence around his government but Buhari lowered the bar completely.
Do you agree that the challenge NLC is facing on the suspended strike is much more than what they actually think they are faced with?
NLC by their history has not been known to have achieved anything. They make all the necessary noise but at the end of the day, they go behind the scenes to negotiate with the government and they get settled, but the masses will suffer. I’m not entertained by NLC’s warning strike.
Can’t you call them a bit of slack in this particular action because the previous strike had to be suspended because of the National Industrial Court order? But this time around, while negotiation was still going on regarding the N540 pump price, another increase came, hence the reason for the new mass action?
That court order was a fluke as far as I’m concerned. You don’t use an order of court to stop people from exercising their fundamental rights. Labour laws all over the world understand the fact and made the provision that workers have the right to protest, to picket offices, to say that their working conditions are no more favourable to them. You don’t go and get a court order to say that workers should not go on strike.
But they could be charged for contempt. Recall that was the reason ASUU called off its almost one year strike. Don’t you think?
What has the NLC done to vacate the court order?
The tribunal is yet to make its judgement on the presidential petition. Everybody is mulling a run off. What do you make of the outcome of the presidential tribunal so far?
Well, I don’t have anything to say about what they are doing there. If there’s a miracle the tribunal summons courage to upturn the election that produced the current president.
The president is already threatening everybody that if they remove him from power, there’ll be chaos. In other words, what he’s saying is that if they remove him, he’s not going to throw in the towel. If they remove him and he leaves, there won’t be any problem. The only thing that can cause problems is if he’s removed but he decides to stay back, that’s the only way there can be chaos. He’s already threatening everybody, and I don’t see this tribunal having the balls to overturn the election. We are in for this for the next four years, that’s the truth. I’m a realist.
You’re a Labour Party person. In the closing of the case by Tinubu’s head counsel, Wole Olanipekun, he said even if the court decides to order a run off, it should only be between the first and second, which is Tinubu and Atiku Abubakar of the PDP, excluding Peter Obi of Labour Party. How do you respond to that?
Olanipekun with all due respect to him, is a very senior lawyer, but there are arguments we’re canvassing in court. We’re not only saying there should be a rerun because of 25 percent in Abuja, we’re actually canvassing that we won the election as well.
So, if we’re able to convince the tribunal that we won in Rivers State, which everybody has proven that the Labour Party, Premium Times did a heavy report on how we won the election in Rivers State but Nyesom Wike upturned it.
If we were able to prove that we won the election in Rivers, we won in Benue State, they stole our votes in Benue, we won in Taraba but they stole our votes in Taraba. If we’re able to prove in these places, and they’re able to give us our votes, then we will overtake Atiku, and we’ll overtake even Tinubu, we won by popular votes.
Even in Lagos State, PDP was helping us to give evidence that we got up to 1 million votes in Lagos but they were declaring about 600,000 for us.
So, what Olanipekun is saying, as far as I’m concerned, he’s hiding behind one finger because the truth is that our plea there was not just to upturn the election because Tinubu was not able to get 25 percent in Abuja, we’re making the argument that we won this election, that they suppressed our votes in different places. So, if the tribunal is able to restore those votes for us, that argument holds no water.
“I was in APC, it was when this president won the election in APC that I left the party because I knew that this thing was going to play out this way exactly, and in all conscience, I knew I wasn’t going to support him to be my president because I knew that things will turn out to be this way”
You are aware of the chaos that ensued between the DSS and the prison officials at the court during Godwin Emefiele’s trial. What’s your description of the drama that unfolded there?
It’s the shame of a nation. I have no sympathy for Godwin Emefiele because he’s part of the cabal that brought us to our present morass but my problem there is that the court gave an order that somebody should be remanded in the correctional facility, but you decided to hold on to this man against the order of court.
Before then, you held this man for over a month on the basis of an order of court, they told Nigerians that they got a court order to detain him.
The truth is that constitutionally, you’re supposed to arraign him within 24 hours or 48 hours, as the case may be.
The argument I’m making here is that the DSS detained him beyond the constitutional provision of the maximum time they could detain somebody before arraigning him in court. The reason they said they detained him beyond the constitutional provision was that they got a court order. So, you understand that you need a court order to detain him.
The same court gave you an order to release him and put him in the correctional center, but you still held him back.
They went back to the same court to issue an order for them to detain him for another 14 days, and the court said no, you can’t approbate and reprobate at the same time. You can’t insult us and come back to us. So, you knew that you needed a court order; meanwhile there was a court order that you violated.
I’m surprised because when this president came on board, there was a little altercation between the DSS and the EFCC when the DSS went to barricade the EFCC’s office in Ikoyi. I heard the president called the service chiefs and told them that he will not entertain inter agency rivalry in his government but less than two months after that warning, we’re seeing this thing play out.
So, it’s a small taste of what we’re going to see in this administration. There’s nothing new that this man is bringing on board, it’s just the same old same.
Just like you said that even if the court upturns the election, Tinubu’s threat to the judiciary is an indication that they’ll not leave office. Also, the DSS had continuously disobeyed court orders, case in point, Nnamdi Kanu and Emefiele, and this is just his two months in office. Should Nigerians have so much to fear?
Yes, we have so much to fear. When we began, I told you that for people who are surprised, have so much to fear, maybe this is looking like some kind of apprehension for them, but for someone like me, I don’t have.
I knew he was going to be like this. I was in APC, it was when this president won the election in APC that I left the party because I knew that this thing was going to play out this way exactly, and in all conscience, I knew I wasn’t going to support him to be my president because I knew that things will turn out to be this way.
You see, there’s a popular quote by Mitchell Obama, she said that some people make you think that public office can change people. If there’s one thing public office does to people, it amplifies who you are. So, if you knew this man to be someone with a particular trait, just know that when he gets in there, it will amplify.
