In this interview with MAYOWA SAMUEL, the president of the Academic Staff Union of Universities, Professor Emmanuel Osodeke, speaks on the challenges plaguing the sector, as he expressed optimism that the incoming government of Bola Tinubu should have better days ahead. Excerpts:
You were recently reelected unopposed as president of the Academic Staff Union of Universities. How has the journey and experience been for you so far in your administration?
We’re not politicians, I can’t assess myself, our members should assess me, that’s how it is. It’s only those who have not performed that assess themselves. The people you’re working with will assess you, not you. We’ve been in the struggle and the struggle will continue because the system isn’t working, and we’ll ensure it works.
Your union has been having challenges with the Buhari government. What’s the state of things regarding the agreement reached with the Federal Government along with the court judgement that led to you calling off the strike?
The case is still ongoing in court. What the court decided was the issue of getting us to stop the strike, but the case is still on, and we’re watching. However, as soon as that was done, the government withdrew from everything. So all the issues, nothing has been resolved, except the one they did yesterday (Thursday), releasing the white paper of the panel. They’ve not touched any of the other things, they abandoned everything as usual. Strike is their problem, but unknown to the Nigerian people, the government doesn’t do what they should do. If they do what they should do, there won’t be a strike. But once there’s no strike, they won’t call you for meetings, they’ll just assume that everything has been resolved, that’s the problem we’ve had in this country.
Now that the outgoing government is handing over to a new one, don’t you think they have set a booby trap for the incoming government in this regard?
We expect that the incoming government fully understands what the issues are. Remember the Speaker intervened at that time but his intervention, people derailed it. But we believe that the incoming president will take education as number one priority. The good thing is that he went through the system, so he should know that the number one priority is education. As soon as we fund education very well and these younger ones are well trained with access to education, the issue of insecurity, kidnapping will reduce. But when these people are there on the streets, not trained, then they are very prone to recruitment by criminals. So, I believe he’ll have that at the center in the system, and to ensure that for all the past issues, we should sit down as Nigerians, look at them without bias. What the Minister of Labour does is start with bias, but without bias, without looking at the system, I’m sure we’ll have a system that’ll work.
Also, in appointing a minister of education, he should appoint someone who knows what the system is, who has ideas, not the one who recently said he didn’t know anything about education when he was appointed. So, you can see where we are now. So, let him appoint somebody who has an idea of what the problem in education is, to promote growth of education in the country, that all our people running away, our doctors, lecturers running away to go and work in other countries, will all come back. We should even have foreigners coming in to impact some life to the system, just like they have in other countries. We believe that the incoming government will first of all sit down and resolve all the past issues, and then, chart a way forward on the table where both sides will make their contributions, where nobody will come as a master and lord, where nobody will come with bias, those are the things we expect from the government. I believe he’ll go that way.
“We believe that the incoming president will take education as number one priority. The good thing is that he went through the system, so he should know that the number one priority is education”
As at the last count, about seven states still owe civil servants’ salaries, particularly those of lecturers, including pension of retirees. Top on this list is Benue and Abia, some haven’t even started paying the new minimum wage, like Zamfara. How bad is it now and what have you been able to do to address this?
Well, a number of states owe, and the beautiful thing is that a number of governors who owe are going this time. So, we expect that those who are coming in will change the trajectory. There were some states that owed and when the governors came in, they tried to resolve the issues. So, we expect that to also happen in this case. In Abia State for example, they owe our colleagues up to eight, ten, twelve months salaries. We hope the incoming government will handle that as a priority. Their university used to be one of the best state universities in the country. They had the best structure, the best in paying salaries, but today, the reverse is the case, you also have a number of them all over. So, we hope that the incoming government will sit down with our union, look at the issues. We can even propose other means of paying these salaries without stressing the states but they’ll not listen to us, they’ll not call us for meetings, they want to say take this or leave it, which isn’t how education is run.
This outgoing administration made us witness the two single longest ever ASUU strikes in the country’s history. How did these strikes affect the education timetable of the institutions, the delay of students’ studies and graduations, the education sector in its entirety?
Let me explain also that those who suffered during these strikes are the academic sector and the students; you can go and check any university. What we did four to six months after we called off the strike was to ensure how we’ll meet up with what we were supposed to do at that time. For the first time for any lecturer in a university, this is the only year that no lecturer went on break during Christmas; schools were open so we could meet up. But the outgoing minister of labour was saying no work, no pay. Some are already in 2021/2022, they’ll move over to 2022/2023 maybe in the next four to five months. The normal academic session is about eight months, but now, they run concurrently. The time we should go for our leave, vacation or rest, we’re sacrificing it to make up for the time lost, they’re meeting up but somebody said he will not pay. If he had listened to us, we would’ve been talking about leaving that backlog of 2022/2023 but we won’t do that because these are Nigerian children, these are Nigerian people whose behalf we’re fighting. There’s no country in the world where they don’t have strikes, maybe except China. But in those countries, when they start a strike, they address the issues, you don’t work with threats. Remember, days ago, NARD issued a warning strike, but the Minister of Labour said no work, no pay. Is that how to solve problems? You don’t solve problems with threats, you sit down most times, and look at it, you give and take, and then, you move on. But that minister, threatening people, is that how to solve problems? That’s not the problem. Thank God he’s going. I also believe that the incoming government will know that strike is not an issue but if a union has an issue, you address it. You don’t wait until they give you warning over and over again. That strike, we started with a two- week warning strike, they did nothing. We added another two weeks, they did nothing, only for them to say we’ve held your salaries, as if lecturers are slaves. The repercussions are that between that strike and now, not less than 5,000 lecturers have left the country. Is that what we should do? Is the salary you’re withholding worth the 5,000 lecturers who have left? That’s the problem we’re having but I believe the next administration will solve issues as they come and not allow strikes to be an issue.
It’s very good that the lecturers returned to classes and made up for the time already lost. Many students however complained about being rushed. Are you not worried about the negative impact this rushing will have on these students?
We’re the ones making sacrifices, a typical year in the university is about 24 to 26 weeks, they have an extra 16 weeks or more than that they’re supposed to use to rest but they’re using it to make up for the past. You can talk to the students, nobody is contracting the system. In the universities, exams are done in three to four weeks, and we follow it, but the lecturers are the ones paying the price. During Christmas, the normal three days declared by the government as holidays, we’re supposed to go and rest, we usually take about a month off while the students travel home. But this is the first time the students didn’t travel home because they had to resume the next day after Christmas. So, we’re not contracting anything.
When the strike was called off, some universities rushed the exams and it was difficult for students to have enough time to read and prepare adequately for these exams…
No university will ask you to come back this week and start the exam next week. It’s after you have finished the session, they’ll give one week for revision before you start exams.
If there was no court order that restrained the union from continuing with the strike, making you call off the strike, would you have still not called off the strike?
Let me explain to you. In Ghana, somewhere along the line, the lecturers said enough is enough, and they went on strike for more than a year. When the government realised, they met with them. Today, Nigeria is paying not less than N400 billion to Ghana as school fees, Nigerian students are moving in droves to Ghana. They have special hostels for Nigerian students in Ghana.
Because of that strike, and the government realising the importance of education, they didn’t have a strike for more than two weeks after that. In our country, we don’t learn from the past, Nigerian lecturers are now moving to Ghana because of that strike that raised the tempo of education, and they took education seriously. But here, we believe strike is the problem, strike is not the problem. Ghana is benefiting from that more than one year strike because they’re now getting students from all over the world, who pay huge monies to these Ghanaian universities. But here, we believe that once the strike is over, we abandon everything. You can go and check the status of the facilities in the Nigerian universities, we still have students taking lectures in open fields, we have students still using stoves as Bunsen burners. Strike is not the problem, let’s revamp our system and since we’re the so-called giants of Africa, let’s be like that. Let people come from Benin Republic, Togo, Ghana, and South Africa.
But my question was that would the strike have lingered on if the court order had not stopped you from continuing the strike?
We would have continued until the government agreed to do what we demanded. They were already talking with us. You know the president told the Minister of Labour to go and resolve this issue within two weeks but nothing happened, and they ran to court. When a family or a husband and wife are quarrelling, the solution is not court. The solution is both sides sitting down and resolving the issues. When you force a lecturer to come to class, and he says, okay I’ll go there, walk around for one hour and walk away, who will suffer? Will the lecturer put their best in the system? That’s what we’re saying. The beauty is that a new government is coming and we know they’ll value education and we’ll ensure that the issues are resolved.
With the elongation of professors’ retirement age to 70 years, aren’t you worried that some state governments that are having issues paying salaries on time to lecturers may not be able to cope?
In some countries of the world, lecturers have no retirement age. Also, you’re seeing universities being established on a daily basis, 37 universities. Where are they going to get lecturers to teach in those universities if these professors are allowed to retire at 65? These are the professors that produce MSC, PHD holders who will lecture in all these universities. If you retire them at 60-65, who will train these students? It’s even a sacrifice by the lecturers because when you check the ratio of lecturers with PHD to students, especially in private universities, it’s less than 50 percent, it’s already a short fall. So, if you ask these lecturers to go, who will train those sets of people? For you to be a lecturer who will graduate with a PHD, you must be of the rank of senior lecturer and above.
Let us look at the flip side of this. Every session, universities are churning out more graduates, MSC holders, PHD holders, who are also qualified for these lecturing positions. With the elongation of the retirement age what will happen to the fresh MSC and PHD holders? Are you not concerned that their chances of getting employed will be slimmer?
Lecturing jobs all over the world are not of a disadvantage, it’s about quality and competence, that’s one of the things going wrong in this country. For you to be a lecturer in a Nigerian university, you must have a second class upper degree before you can be appointed as a graduate assistant. So, it’s not just about picking anybody to become a lecturer, but that’s what we’re having now in the system. We can be able to produce a professor, that’s what we call emeritus professor, professor for life. We don’t even have enough, we still have a very heavy shortfall of professors in Nigeria. Those days, what every university did was that every department, when you train first class, will look at their best brain, retain him, send him for training and bring him back to teach, that’s what we were doing those days. Lecturing isn’t for everybody, it’s for a special group, people who can make second class upper in a university, not in an open field that we’re trying to create today. You have a third class, he’ll go and do PGD, and you say you’re a lecturer, those aren’t lecturers. We have a very huge shortfall, you heard the NLC say it the other day that we have about 100,000 lecturers in Nigeria, but today, we have more than 2 million students. Who will teach them? When you go to other climes, the ratio of lecturers to students in some countries is one to three, that is, for every three students, there is one lecturer. But here in some universities, it’s one to thirty. So, we have a huge shortfall, and many of these professors and lecturers are leaving the country. So, there’s a need to create the environment to allow universities to produce more quality lecturers who will take over from those who are leaving.
The House of Reps and many stakeholders over the years, even long before the Buhari administration, have been crying out that the HND/BSC dichotomy be phased out but till now, it still exists. How have universities been able to bridge this gap regarding the HND and BSC dichotomy, in terms of employment of lecturers?
If we put it very well, a university cannot employ an HND holder as a lecturer. HND holders are not qualified to lecture in universities. The minimum entry to teach in a university is first degree, if you want to start at the bottom level, the qualification is first degree with second class upper. But you see, there shouldn’t be any so called dichotomy between HND and BSC, they have different routes. When you go to some of these private companies, HND holders earn more than degree holders, depending on your area of specialisation. Go to Shell. So, this idea of we’re producing graduates for public service, we should deemphasize it. In your area in journalism, nobody looks at those things, it’s your competence, training, and these are what matters. So, all these people in public service and ministries talking about HND/BSC dichotomy, there’s no dichotomy, they’re different areas. HND holders are trained to be experts in basically practical, technology, and what have you. Degrees are quite different. We shouldn’t be trying to look at it as if there’s a dichotomy. If the HND people can fight the government to have their salaries higher than degree, let them do that but we shouldn’t be doing competition. If those who have HND can come together and fight for higher salaries, then go and fight for higher salaries, but don’t sight degree holders, just like degree holders should fight for higher salaries, but don’t sight HND holders. These are what they use to get poor Nigerians, the middle class, whatever they call them, to fight among themselves while some people are up there enjoying themselves. A person with HND in NNPC earns more than a graduate from the university. A person with HND in the Central Bank earns more than a lecturer in the university. Why are they not saying those with HND in NNPC and Central Bank should earn the same salary?
“The repercussions are that between that strike and now, not less than 5,000 lecturers have left the country. Is that what we should do? Is the salary you’re withholding worth the 5,000 lecturers who have left?”
What exactly is the bone of contention between your union and the Federal Government regarding the use of the Integrated Personnel Payroll Information System?
There’s no bone of contention, every university was established by law, and by the law of every university, the body that should manage the finances of every university, that should employ the staff and pay them, is the Governing Council, not the Federal Ministry of Finance. Every year, the Council, University management should go and defend their budgets in the National Assembly, and money approved to them for their salaries, not approved by NASS to pay the universities. Let me tell you what’s happening now. Nigerian universities are no longer employing foreign lecturers again in this country because of this particular IPPIS. We were employing in the University in Sokoto, we were to go to Abuja and register with IPPIS, so we’ll have to take a flight to Abuja with our meagre salary, spend four or five days, and queue in front of one clerical officer to register. Where’s that happening in the world? Lecturers all over the world are people with pride, not them going to queue before a clerk to register. Go and look at the report of the Surveyor General of the Federation in 2019 and see the scam that this IPPIS has placed on this country, the report is there. Recently, we were told that IPPIS is packing people’s salaries, and we’re saying let’s go back to the laws of universities. We asked that every five years, if any university is misbehaving, send an investigation panel to go and investigate. If they are found wanting, you deal with them. That’s the basis but who’s the Accountant General of the Nigerian office? Did the panel go there every five years? Now, the universities have gone so bad that some of my colleagues, for twelve to twenty months, haven’t been paid. The minimum wage adjustment, in my own university, more than 30 percent of them have not been paid, and it’s the same thing nationwide. That’s the problem we’ve been having, and instead of teaching your students, you’re running to Abuja to go and enroll, to go and beg somebody. This country needs to move forward, just like other countries of the world, and we should go the way universities are going universally, not zoning to some Ministry of Finance establishment or civil service.
Why do you think the government is not accepting the UTAS platform you’re proposing?
People are benefiting from IPPIS. Remember there was an Accountant General in that ministry who had started implementing it (IPPIS) but was later alleged to have stolen N130 billion, and the case is in court. Where did that N130 billion come from? That’s what we’re saying. Let’s go back to the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s when the universities were running, not becoming part of the civil service bureaucracy.
There’s a claim that the reason the lecturers are refusing to accept the payment platform was because they’re avoiding a situation where lecturers will be lecturing in several universities and collecting duplicated salaries at the same time. What’s the truth regarding that claim?
Look, let me also put it to you that you should check all over the world, for the condition of service, universities have the right to adjunct ship and part time lecturing. For example, you have a lecturer in the University of Abuja teaching in a specialised area in medicine, then you have the same in Minna. When that lecturer leaves, nobody will teach that course. The university in Abuja will have to beg this man to come there maybe once in a week or two times in a month and teach that course to those students, that’s adjunct ship, it’s approved all over the world. I have done it in Ghana and in Mali, so it’s not as if anything is wrong with that. So, anybody telling you that, you can check, you have sabbatical. After six years of teaching, you can go to other universities, look at what’s happening there, and bring that experience back home to your university. They are there in the law and it happens all over the world. When we want to create problems and have access to the system, they lay this issue. Adjunct ship and part time lecturing had been there since universities started in the 1960s in Nigeria, so it’s not a new thing, it’s not fraud, and we’re helping the system, that’s it. And for me to go, I’ll have to get permission from my university to go. And you’re not getting your full salary there, you’re being paid for the work you do there.
